I think that you have missed the basic problem of the debate. What is
religion and what is science ? Doctors both academically and medically
say that it is impossible to be cured
from disease for instance scizophreny. But there are scientific
evidence that 2000 years
ago there was a man who was capable of curing succesfully many kind of
diseases kept
uncurable not only this one.
     What do we know about history ? If we believe the truth (the
bible),we are not believing
  a "believth" but making science. We are scientist in the finest
meaning of the word.
 If believe something that is untrue (evolutionbelievth) we are
promoting religion not science.
As an educated teacher and scientist I prefer promoting science (the
Bible) not religion (evolutionbelievth). That is the point of the
debate.

Half years ago there was a presidential elections campaign going on in
Finland.
I don't no if people in USA or elsewhere know what elections mean but
here in Finland here are
elections in societies,parties,parlaments etc in huge numbers. Those
who don't know,what
elections are I explain that it is question about who leads the
country,municipality etc.
People vote with one man one vote principle.
      Newspapers were full of calls of people to come to cafes
following speches of candidates and to discuss with members of campaign
officials.
    I was following a distant what was happening . Social minister
Hyssälä and European Union MP Ville Itälä were in campaign. Poor
man was going straight through to the
minister. He presented his case I have liitle money ,in social office
they give little or nothing
I feel hunger and have diseases,could you help me. Social minister
analyzed the situation
he saw that man was clearly not on the have side of the society. He
took pistol pointed it to the man without saying the word. Man turned
and shut the door behind.
      On the nearby market place were another party keeping its
campaign. Poor man
was coming to the place. He felt hungry and went to eating cakes and
drinking coffee.
He presented his case as in the previously, I am poor man.... Former
forigen secretary
stood nearby put his hand on the pistol in his pocket but in an instant
moment changed his mind. The sitution was relaxed.  Poor man met an
woman standing beside.
he asked for the woman who she. She answered with the fluent russian
that she was
engineer from St.Petersburg. Man asked the woman  who had sent her to
the market place. She answered without blinkking an eye : "God". Man
seemed little surprised.
Man asked the woman what happened in the nort-east Europe 500 years
ago.
Woman said : "i don't know" . Man explained that there had been a war
beetween ostjags and russian and the tribe had moved another sideof the
urals. "That was wrong" answered the woman. There was no pistols, no
bombs, not a single aggression in any way.
They discussed a while and man said "God loves you" and turned off.
  Then the poor man continued to promote his case of poverty. Most
people
stood idle not to pay attention to this guest. Then there were a pair
of teenage girls
the man stood and asked them a few questions. They answered with fluent
arab with iraq accent that they were observant muslims. Man asked, did
they know about the wife of Muhammed, Aisha. They said
yes. Man asked what was the age of the Aisha when she married Muhammed.
They said 12 years. Man asked was that the right age. They answered :
"Too young". Man asked :
" Was Muhammad prophet" . Observant muslims answered simultaniously :
"No".
Then man asked "What are the muslim men like". The girls said : " We
leave now".
man seemed embaarrased no pistols no bomb belts,no violence.
In fact man looked like bizarre of these very complicated and
contradicotry encounters.
Some were abnormally and fully without agression ,some saw the
oppurtunity
to touch pistols and make easy money.
After a few days there , was a small article in the New York times that
Ville Itälä
had losed campaign with a small margin.

In the bible there is a discription of the flood. In my geological and
geographical study I
have found that the flood is quite a common phenomenon on earth. In
Europe,Asia and
America exactly all over the world there are enormous numbers of floods
every year.
There is nothing unclear on this.

But in the Bible  Genesis 1 there is said that the spirit of God was
moving over the water.
  What do you think how the solid,liquid and gaseous parts of the earth
are born ?
   Was the whole earth once covered with the water ?

We can think for instance cancer. Non-creationists thinks that we
must abolish this
 "tumour" ,which he sees with his eyes from the body of the patient. In
some instances it works but in most cases it doesn't. A Creationist
thinks with another way. First he begins to analyze,what this "tumour"
is really all about ? How it is born ? Why it is born ? What is its
structure ? A creationist begins to analyze the various different
"tumours" and he learns how they differ and which ways they are similar
? What is the chemistry behind the "tumour" ? What is the mechanics
and physics behind ?
 The creationist doesn't stop only what he sees with his eyes but tries
to get a full grasp
of the true facts behind senses. He begins seeing invisible things. The
physics and creationistic science is based on this seeing the invisible
world whether by physical equipment
as telescopes and microscopes etc and with scientific information that
he constructs
withe help of observanitional data . The creationism is based on the
interaction between these two. The result is the succinct and well
organized data that fits well for the world and gives
good bases on giving advice to our neighbour how to avoid and repair
mistakes in our life.
In every city people have in fact infinite number of problems with
their life. If they invent the phone number of the scientific
astronomer this number has infinite number of phones and
nobody is able to discuss his or her problems.

esus said that don't condemn and if you condemn do it right and
correctly. JPK has
  said many truths here that all evolution religion worshippers have
not been able to admit.
   First in the basic question he has admitted that there is
creator,who has created us.
   Are Otto Mäkelä,Wakboth etc naive because they have not admitted
that. In the footsteps
  of Pertti Koivisto JPK has never attacked with physical or vebal or
psychological violence
  towards evolutionists but as follower of Pertti with warmth and
friendship and superior scientific advice tried to lead those who are
in lie (evolution theory) to truth (creationism).
 These facts and many others doesn't eclipt the fact that JPK:s trust
on Hovind etc
  has been total failure as we see when Hovind was captured by police.
The question with
Juha is the universal fact that where he is wrong and where he is
right. When we read bible we can answer the question.

This is one of the reasons why fewer and fewer people believe in
evolution theory.
   Evolution theory needs insults, psychological and other pressure
including threat of murder
   etc for its defence. That is exactly case with islam,
communism,nazism, sun rotating earth,evolution theory
   and many other religions,ideas, and ideologies. When we have truth
we need not pistols and bombs etc. We can with calm and love and full
scientific data convince those who have not found truth (creationism),
and they can find peace and truth. When baby is born,everybody
knows,that baby is as intelligent as anyone else. But babys experience
and knowledge is
very small. This same is fact somehow with whole mankind.
Astronomy,which is my specialty is practically 100 years old science.
Same is with medicine. There are today witchdoctors
 in Africa and in many parts of the world. But 100 years ago there were
frogtherapies for mouthdisease etc etc  everywhere in the world. Light
(creationism) is little by little seeping in the realm of tousands or
even hundred of thousand years of era of teaching evolution religion.
Science (creationism)
proceeds in the biology as penisillins and vaccinations in medicine.
These are exciting times to be creationist because so many can see the
light of love and creator in the world.

 This is exactly, what evolutionist believers are doing all the time.
Accusastions of trolls
   and other hints of less or greater lies and violence. What was wrong
in my writing ?
   Perhaps few mistakes in writing  etc,but in substantial matters
article is 100% correct.
    No mistake is found. Why evolution worshippers can not admit,that
their theory is in total
   contradiction of both bible and and all observations we can get and
-what is most important- with mathematics. Why to defend religion
(evolution theory) that is doomed to failure ?
 Why not to choose the scientific truth that reveals that right answer
is creationism  !
  Good luck for everybody in seeking truth (creationism).

This time you made a statement not argument,you said only "no"
without anything to support you. Before we begin to explain science
(creationism) we have to present some
religious material (evolution). In science (creationism) there is no
matters of dispute
but in religion there(evolution) there is. The question of science is
practically a question of intelligence. What is the birth place of
wisdom,intelligence ? Religion says that that doesn't exist,but
scientific publications (bible) gives the way...

I think contrary. There has always been religous thinking and
worshipping, In America
   Asia,Egypt worshipping of sun,moon etc was common,same thing is
worshipping evolution
   and other believths and assumptions.. But science (creationism) is
winning all the time.

There are many things that are beyond dispute. The most famous
statement is
  from church father Augustinus : "cogito ergo sum". There are also
other statements
  that we find to be absolute truths. As a teacher of physics and
mathematics in primary school I have stated a simple example that every
pupil learns : The sum of angles of every triangle
is two right angles in eucleidian plane  geometry. That is not absolute
clear by sight,but when we verify it mathematically we understand that
this is fact -science-not religion. So we
can with scientific creationistic method find more and more truths that
are beyond dispute.
If somebody makes a statement or an argument we can put it this
scientific test. If it gets thorough
the test it is trutht if don't it is believeth. Our understanding of
the world thus is based on science (creationism)=truth. When we think
bible we must put it to this creationistic truth test.
When we find results no mistake is found-bible is truth. Then we put
evolution theory to test.
Test results so that evolution theory is religion not truth. So we have
solved the basic problem
of religion and science.

 But if we begin to calculate the probability of the life we get this
zero probability value
   if we don't put the C-factor (Creator) into the equation.  The
result would be zero in any case
   (with weak anthropic principle) taken into account also. We really
have this 200b galaxies
   etc,but the probability of life and especially of  human life is so
small that even that number
   (200b) don't change it. So there is only one possibility to think
the history of the life scientifically -to put the C-factor to the
calculation and get the right answer.

In the bible there are nowhere said that the earth or the universe
or humans were created in 6000 years. The result depends only on
calculations. The only information in the bible is that the world was
created in the beginning 'bereshiit'. So when we present numbers we
must  say
how we calculated them. In my opinion my calculations are more biblical
tha
n those 6000 years.

 A Creationistic method doesn't try to explain the world in such a
way that doesn't exist in the world. If exact calculations and all
facts prove that we must take C-factor in our mathematics
we put it there and don't omit it only because we don't like it.

Creationist medical science is based on the facts not on superstition
as non-creationistc.
  When patients are cured with creationistic methods they are healed if
with superstition they don't.
  We can heal patients either physically with right medicine or right
cure or psychologically with right information. Creationistic medicine
is based on physics. Humans act mechanically
and chemically and psychologically. Every person lives in an
environment that he must to adapt.
The illnesses are born with three ways. We make a mistake and get an
illness. Our body makes a mistake. We don't make a mistake but are
affected by the environment. So creationistic
way of medicine is to avoid mistakes and if we make a mistake to repair
it.

  Logic

When I was acting as a researcher on the planetary sciencies in Tuorla
Observatory I found
that there are huge numbers of sand all over the world in both
oceans,in utmost dry Sahara
or American huge deserts. I found that these huge numbers of sand
couldn't exist without
water or flood. The flood must have been nearly totally global because
there are only a little
land without sand in high mountain areas. In my planetary comparisons
for instance the moon has no sand,but in Mars there are enormous sand
dunes that NASA astronomers have not found to be made by water. So
there have been global flood not only on earth but also on mars.

In the most finest chapter of the Bible roman area leader Pilate asks
the jewish figure the
answer his question : "What is truth". The answer to this question was
silence.
What that  really meant ? Did this jewish figure didn't know the basic
principles of cosmology
or life or humanity ? Why this total silence in the basic question that
educated roman governor knew ? Romans kept him dangerous man. The man
of great publicity of his nation.
He was a public figure that romans wanted to put away with some way or
another.
What was the answer of jewish leadership ? They were under occupation
of forign
power. There were resistance movements gaining independence,while
romans had captured the country about hundred years ago. It is said
that one of Jesus apostoles belonged to the group like that. There were
continuosly fear of demonstrations and revolt not only in the Israel
but all over the country. Various military players were working both
inside the Rome and there
were forign enemies of the empire on the borders. This man was a beyond
doubt a religious figure not political,economical or military. He was
poor man of poor family of many children and was somehow not he man of
power.
What was his place in this play. He was totally innocent in any
respect. He had escaped
trap after trap that romans put on his way. he had enermous popularity
among the nation
in agony of occupation and unjustice. To condemning him straight
through could be very difficult with the fear of revolt and uprisal.
The leadership of the jewish nation were in problems too, to become
publicly supporting this figure of their brother should turn to the
wrath of the occupation army and the revenge. On the other hand they
had no doubt the quality of this man. They feeled exactly the same
problem as their contemporary
man of street jewish man. The enemies were around and they pondered
their position
and relationship to this figure. Then there were the poor and sick
masses who were
seeking the help in this human figure promoting human values in the
highest manner.
Both romans and jewish leadership understood the problem. He was
religiuos man that
surpassed roman sinful "gods" and emperors. Jews understood the problem
as well.
He was  well known figure on the bookkself of the nation. He had large
number of friends
of the enormous masses but some parts of leadership tried to support
and contact under secrecy of fear of the occupation army. What was the
move of this man in this difficult situation

When we think about history of both ancient or today we meet a plague
of atheism and its
various forms all over the world. The islamic,nazi and socialist states
were and are under lead
of atheists that lead to people to horrors  and unjustice and lie . For
instance Hitler are said to be a leader of christian country. But in
atheistic Hitler there was as little christian as his atheistic
adversaries  in Soviet Union from where he imitated his methods of
horrors promoted by Darwin and Marx. It was religious atheistic Marx
and Darwin who were rised high by this atheistic leaders who tried to
put cruelty in its peak. Both Hitler and socialist leadership
were in fact nothing but a gang of criminals. Hitler despised openly
christianity and all science and its human values with the same manner
that socialist on the other side.
That doesn't eclipse the fact that there in Europe were many fine
christians in both east and west who were martyred in that era by
promoting human values and with their death took again victory over
these brutal
Darwins and Hitlers. In this historic era on science (the bible) time
of Darwinistic religion  and its
brutal adherents is nearing the end both in islamic countries that are
led by criminals of atheistis. When this superstition is taught to
children I have found that quite a small number of
children turn their back to science and promote these terrible
horroneous religion of Darwin
as is depicted by Moses to be worshipped of his era in the Middle east.
Time is ticking and the era of science (creationism) is practically on
the door. The major
weapons in the hands of science are many but the most powerful is
enevitably the truth.
The atheistic leaderships were they are have no place of escape
anywhere even not death makes this escape. Creationist (scientist)
crack any lie the atheists(Darwinist) try to promote. They are totally
cornered whether they are under any camouflgage.

What is this fuss all over around Darwin ? When we scrutinize his work
there is in fact nothing scientific in his work and in fact nothing new
presented. Ancient tribes in Norhern Siberia and Greece etc presented
the same in their fairytales and stories. Why Darwins name is so often
mentioned although his work had no scientific value ? I say that this
belonged to battle
of science (creationism) and religion (atheism,darwinism). Why the
scientific data is not
used in media ? In TV:s there professors and editors camouflage their
religion (Darwinism,atheism)  as scientific why it has no bases in
observation. On the other hand science
(creationism) is said to to be religion. Why media tries to put facts
upsidedown without
a reason or any even small scientific evidence. What is the motive of
these huge lieing maschines of media ? Why the scientific truth
(creationism) may not to be taught to
children in USA and elsewhere in public schools? What is is that
science (creationism) is promoting such a fear amongst teachers and
officials that it must be banned ? What does those lead USA
education minister fear in science ? Why the absolute testimony of
global flood (sand everywhere) must be kept as most important secret
that anybody is not allowed to hear.
Why NASA systematically tries to prevent that public not to hear facts
of the modern research of the planetary sciences of creationistic
Tuorla Observatory and the global flood.

This question is somehow complicated. But certainly as an expert of
Soviet Union Ronald Reagan couldn,t say it better,when he said that the
evil lives in Moscow. So to find evil is not
very difficult. It is Karl Marx ,Charles Darwin etc and the values of
Soviet Union.
   But what on elsewhere ? The earth  has not been short of criminals
in any country throughout the history. Nazi Germany and its horrors had
its birth on those same Marxist-Darwinist values. In this way the
guilty is not on ordinary german or eastern block countries the
innocent victims of the horrors of Marx and Darwin and their brutal
governments.
   But the horrors have not been only Japan, Germany or Russia or
China,or Ruandans or Islamic countries.
In USA were the time ,when millions and millions slaves were
transported to America with
utmost unhumanity and atrocity. The wars have been cruel everywhere.
  The fight on earth is between truth and lie ,evil and good. There is
no doubt that Darwins and
Marxists,narcotic and slavetraders and their major lie -atheism- will
vanish.

It is well documented fact in islamic litterature that Muhammed was a
serial rapest of both women and children. Why this fact is actually not
at all presented in newspapers or media ?
Why anybody doesn't find anything strange of the doctrine that keeps
God to supporting
enourmous human suffering for innocent people with utmost brutality ?
When I listen to the TV or radio, everybody is saying Islam is a fine
religion etc etc.
Koran is fine book etc. This serial rapest is a greatest messenger of
the almighty God etc.
Why all the media is making cruel and terrible religion (islam) fine
and punishing those promoting human values (science,bible). Why this
enormous collection of theological liers throughout the world media ?
Are those lieing in the name of God, whether beeing professors of the
orientality
or archebishops of the church who lie to the people of the
scientifically verified facts of islam and its "profet". Can the liers
be ever accepted by Jesus Christ-truth,way and life.

 It is a strange thing again that although this thread has been here
day and night
 there are only a few answers. Evobelivers write under the camouflage
of sock puppets
and pseudonyms. Why they don,t promote their case publicly ?
     David seems to be right again that is proved with the size of this
thread.
There is silence again.
    And in the end . The center of the bible is Jesus ? How do you
think was he  a serial
rapest as Muhammed or innocent person ? Was he a human figure ? How
would you
think about his character ? Atheist leadership of the Rome sees
something strange.
There is a human jewish figure that stirrs the nation ? How do they act
? They have the military, they try to trap this figure in many kinds of
ways but this mathematical supersupercalculator traps his adservaries
in any moment when they try to trap him.
He is a human jewish figure. Romans seem embarrased of this ? Will
there be a revolt ?
What is happening in this political gambit ? He is known by many ?
Inevitably
his brothers and sisters will be on the side of this superman of the
nation.
Agony of the nation is great. What would be a move of this man ? He has
no legions and no
weapons. The nation looks to him of help ? The leadership of the Rome
feels guilty
by trying to kill and trap this strange human figure. Thay have been
defeated in any moment of their traps. If they kill this superman they
know he will be a great figure in the history.
They are defeated again ? Their choice is to try to find somebody who
would kill
him ? Would there be  somewhere a jewish traitor ? What todo  this man
when the whole nation is
speaking about this fantastic human jewish figure ? They try to force
this man make a crime and then he is silently wiped out. But he escapes
even this trap. The man is seemigly helpless,poor man from poor
condition without weapons. So easy case ? Everybody
sees that there should be nobody in the nation to trait this human
superman of the nation ?
What the romans would do ? What would be their move ?

     During the end of the year 1939 Finland was given by atheistic
Germany to
  the atheistic Soviet Union sphere of influence. Poland was divided
and on the other hand
and Baltic states were turning to soviets. But in the west Sweden was
promoting neutrality and France and Britain proclaimed war with
atheistic Germany.
As a consequence the atheistic soviets found the situation to capture
scientific(Biblicial)
Finland. There followed the proclamation of the War with soviets.
Finnish scientific political leadership found the process months before
the war begun.
   What would be their answer ? They decided not to be bent on the
utmost brutalities
of the atheists both by not self beginning to imitate the total and
absolute unhumanity
of their adverasaris both east and west and on the other hand bent on
their conduct by force. Their choice to the lead of the country was
mathematical supercalculator of human values Risto Ryti who took the
lead of the inner circle of the cabinet. There began complicated
political chess play of both ideologically,militarily and politically
in northern Europe.
Risto Rytis ability to calculate the situation and take a victory after
victory for his nation
in a situation where situations varied swiftly and Finland as a small
country was far inferior in militarily for its advesaries. He promoted
human values as a a christian manner  in a stature that rised grave
anger both in Hitler and  Stalin and he eventually tricked both leaders
who were releying  on atheistic criminallty
on total   unhumanity with their   atheistic religion. Gas chambers
were not only unhumanity invented by atheistic goverment of communist
regime on russia and their imitators on the west. On Risto Rytis battle
the final victory in his mathematical supercalculation was finest. By
putting this innocent supercalculator to prison who was far above
the level of his crimanal accusationist persons he defeated atheists
yet again in this final
battle. Atheists with their horrors of how much money they get will
vanish,whether
they rely on communism,socialism,darwinism,scepticism,agnostism or any
other form of atheism. They leave empty hands only gas chambers in
their hand. But Christian mathematical
supercalculator of human values makes an eternal victory in the era of
history.

How do you think, how people react,when meeting a genius ?
Are there general features ? Are there differences ? How would you
react ?